Post by Iconic944ss on Jan 2, 2013 0:11:47 GMT
1) - Here is a page that I had saved for a Sprag repair but now the link sites are sadly, dead?
Big Thumbs up to the WayBack Machine for keeping a copy of the text.
(Sorry no images were saved, but creator is credited)
How to fix your Sprag clutch with a minimum of cost and time
Now I’m sure most of you know the cost of a new Sprag Clutch (starter Clutch). If you don’t. You can sometimes find one on Ebay for around 100.00 or from the dealership for about 40 to 60.00 more. And then the Labor from your dealership so add 60.00 to 75.00 an hour. As you can see this project can really start running in the hundreds of dollars to have some one do it.
If you are willing to tackle this please read on. If not you can have your dealer do it or find a friend or give me a call or email. I do this for 75.00US for air-cooled 1hr and 150.00 for water-cooled 2hrs. the times are all based on no problems arising. (*From 2007!)
For those who don’t know the symptoms.
You might hear a strange whirring noise when you push the starter button, but the bike turns over. Or your bike will make a very loud whirring and nothing will happen.
Some bikes may. Catch and start to turn but when the compression stroke is reach the motor will roll back and forth as the clutch catches and is then over powered by the compression again.
NOTE: if your motor is doing any of these. don't keep trying to start your bike too many times, you run the risk of damaging your Crank shaft.
This job should take with some planning and care and about 2hrs adjust a little for Water-Cooled bikes. This also depends on your skill.
Tools.
30mm ½ drive Impact socket would be the best.
½ drive Impact Wrench
(If you don’t have access to one you can use the socket and a soft strap wrench to hold the Generator. Or the Ducati Tool there are two, one for the 2Phase gen. And the 3Phase gen. It is important that you know what you have before buying this tool. (its handy for more than just this job.)
4mm and 5mm Allen Long, A set of Dykes
Locktite 601 or Permatex thread locker Red
Some rags, and a sharpie or tire lettering pen.
A piece of card board.
Rubber or Leather Mallet
Torque wrench
Permatex HYLOMARo HPF Gasket Dressing or some other High tack sealant. Do not use RTV Sealants
First Thing.
Place bike on a your center stand or a Swing arm stand. NOT on your side stand. Remove any body work from the left side of the bike. That covers the Gen cover. If you have a 851,888 or 900SS and some Monsters, you will most likely want to remove your side stand as it will interfere with removing the case cover.
Next Get your piece of card board and make mark out the pattern of bolts for your cover on it. Poke holes in it. You will place your Allen bolts from the cover in it. Because some of the bolts are specific to there holes. This saves some time on the install and keeps the hardware from getting lost.
Remove your Shifter from the Shaft. 4mm Allen
2V motors Skip this Paragraph unless you have a ST2 water cooled Motor.
Next if you have a water-cooled bike i.e. 851,888,916,996,748 and ST2,ST4 Drain the coolant from the lowest point of the motor this will be from the Horizontal cylinder. Open the Radiator cap or pressure tank cap. Now there is a 5mm Allen on the lowest hose mount. Undo this (there is a small copper washer do not loose it). After the coolant has drained. Loosen the hose clamps on the water pump completely. Then loosen the clamp at the other end of those hoses just a little bit. This is so when you pull the hose off the pump you can turn the hose up so the extra coolant in the system will not drain and they will be out of your way. You may also just remove them if you wish. You can Remove the Water Pump cover or not. Your Choice. If you are going to remove the water pump buy a new gasket.
Remove all the 5mm bolts from the cover. Next remove the three 5mm bolts that hold the Clutch Slave cylinder do not disconnect the hose. Just move the cylinder up and out of the way.
If you have a 4V motor Remove the 4mm bolts that hold your Crank Triggers in. 916,ST4 and S4R’s have one. 851,888 and 916 SPS motors Have 2. Be careful not to loose the shims, one will be located at the front of the case the other will be on top next to the Sight glass.
Before removing the cover have something to support it like a block or safety wire so you don’t have to remove the generator. DO NOT USE the Gen Wires to support the cover.
If you have the Ducati Puller for the Alt cover you can use it.
You might have to tap gently on the cover with the mallet. This should loosen up the cover. Then you can pull it off carefully, do not twist it. If you pull carefully you will not need to replace or use sealant NOTE There are pressed in bearings in the cover that are no fun to replace if you are to vigorous.
Now support the cover with your safety wire or block.
Below is a picture of what s behind. The Sprag inside the back of the Flywheel.
Some very important things before you remove the Nut.
1. take a clean rag and wipe the oil off the generator. Then mark it as in the picture. You will do the same with the Sprag. IF YOU INSTALL any of these backwards you will regret it. So take the time to mark them. The Fly wheel will just pull off with out tools. Look at it there is a dimple on its face next to the crank shaft. This dimple lines up with the woodruff key slot. Do not loose the woodruff key. As you take things a part place them down in order and orientation that they came out in. this will help in the installation.
2. Now if you have an Impact wrench hold the generator with your hand and loosen the nut.
IF you don’t have one use your strap wrench or your Ducati tool to hold the gen. Then loosen the nut. It will be very tight. Get a friend to help you with this part. NOTE be sure to note the shape and orientation of the washer. Some are Conical it is critical that this washing be installed in its correct position.
3. Slide it off. Now you can see the flywheel. Look for the dimple. Remove the woodruff key and sick it to the generator.
4. Gently slide the flywheel off the crank. Behind the flywheel is a set of needle bearings in a cage, with a thin washing behind leave these in place.
5. Now turn over the flywheel so you can see the back. You can now slide the driven gear off the flywheel. You can now see the Sprag clutch. At this point Inspect he race on the driven gear to see if there is any galling from the Sprag if there isn’t continue on.
IF there is Galling STOP. Depending on your mechanical aptitude determine what you should do next. Buy the new parts and change the oil, OR take it to the dealership for a through check.
6 Okay now your looking at the back of he Flywheel. There is a snap ring holding the Sprag in. you can use a small flat head screwdriver to remove the ring. You can now remove the Sprag. Mark the side facing you when installed.
7 Be very careful with the Sprag there are lots of small parts. Look very carefully at the small spring going around the out side of the Sprag Once you have found this use that same screwdriver to lift the spring out of its grove. Be sure not to let any of the teeth fall out. . There will be a small gap in the spring. This is the place where the spring is screwed into it’s self. NOTE the spring will wrap it’s self all up. don’t worry about this.
8 Use your fingers to unscrew the spring. Once that is done take a pare of Dykes and snip off about 1/2 to 5/8th of an inch. Then screw in back onto it’s self. NOTE Clip the end of the spring that is Not Tapered. if you clip the tapered end you will have to buy a new Sprag. Because you will not be able to screw the spring back together.
9 Carefully place the spring back around the Sprag. You can stretch the spring farther than you think. But if you distort the spring you will need to buy that new Sprag. Sorry. you can't buy just the spring from Ducati.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that you are done with the hard part. We put it back together. All parts must go back the way they came out no exceptions and NO EXTRA PARTS if you have some you need to start over.
10 Place the Sprag back in the Flywheel with the side you marked facing out. Then re-install the snap-ring. Make sure it is seated completely.
11 Slide the Driven Gear back in to Sprag. Now hold up the Flywheel. Looking at it as it would be sitting in the engine. Turn the driven gear. It should turn freely clock wise. And not Counter clock wise. Counter Clock wise is Engine rotation. If this is not then remove the Sprag and flip it around. Then re-check. Before installing flywheel.
12 Next. Before installing Flywheel. You must center the thin washer on the Ring that fits inside the Roller cage. This is very critical.
13 Once that is done now you can place the Flywheel back on the crankshaft. Making sure that the dimple is lined up with the slot for the woodruff key in the crankshaft.
14 Now install the woodruff key and slide the Generator on with the correct side facing out. Do not dislocate the woodruff key while doing this.
Consider replacing your nut with a pare of nuts from Nichols MFG. These will not come loose and are a great upgrade, piece of mind for only a few dollars.
15 Next is the washer and nut. Before installing the nut clean all threads and put locktite 601 or equivalent on. Then torque the nut to. 100 to 130 Ft pounds
16 If you have a air-cooled bike carefully place the cover back on the bike. Once seated down install all fasteners.
DO NOT FORCE COVER.
17 If you have a water cooled bike and you did not remove the water pump. Check the positions of the water pump drive shaft on the motor and the pump shaft on the cover. If they are not in the same position turn the pump shaft in the cover to align it with the motor. Then slide the cover on. If the cover will not get any loser than ½ inch away from the engine then you must re-align the shaft. It might take a couple times. DO NOT FORCE.
If you removed the water pump cover just turn the impeller until you feel the shaft engage. At this point the cover will seat. Then install pump cover with a new gasket and a thin layer of Permatex HYLOMARo HPF Gasket Dressing. NO RTV sealants. Do not fully tighten water pump cover.
18 Now you can tighten all of the cover bolts. For 4V bikes reinstall the Crank Triggers making sure that the seating surface and the shims are clean and not damaged.
19 Install Shift assembly. And side stand if removed.
20 Water Cooled Bikes Install coolant hoses and tighten along with 5mm coolant drain plug. Fill system with new coolant or old if there are not contaminations. CHECK for leeks
21 Wipe up any oil on the motor and exhaust system.
22 Start Bike to bleed the cooling system. and ad coolant until full. Check for leeks once bike is up to temp.
23 As for doing this again in the future, there is room to snip the spring more. But unless you have a All out race motor with an electric start. You should only have to do this once.
I hope this will help. Please feel free to email me any questions. About this job or any other.
If you read this and think I have left anything out please let me know.
Chris Gill
christopher@bulldogmtnbikes.com
and here is an odd ball piece of info:
The 906 Paso, 900ss, Pantah engine starter sprag clutch is the same as an LC4 Freewheel bearing,
(KTM Part No.58440026000), avaliable from your local KTM dealer!
====================================================================================
Iconic944ss:
I did a little research when I thought the similar sprag was playing up on my 900ss, here might be some relevant info:
ccrma.stanford.edu/~peer/Duc/duc-spragSpring.html
www.mad-ducati.com/Technical/StarterSpragClutch/SpragClutch.html
Big Thumbs up to the WayBack Machine for keeping a copy of the text.
(Sorry no images were saved, but creator is credited)
How to fix your Sprag clutch with a minimum of cost and time
Now I’m sure most of you know the cost of a new Sprag Clutch (starter Clutch). If you don’t. You can sometimes find one on Ebay for around 100.00 or from the dealership for about 40 to 60.00 more. And then the Labor from your dealership so add 60.00 to 75.00 an hour. As you can see this project can really start running in the hundreds of dollars to have some one do it.
If you are willing to tackle this please read on. If not you can have your dealer do it or find a friend or give me a call or email. I do this for 75.00US for air-cooled 1hr and 150.00 for water-cooled 2hrs. the times are all based on no problems arising. (*From 2007!)
For those who don’t know the symptoms.
You might hear a strange whirring noise when you push the starter button, but the bike turns over. Or your bike will make a very loud whirring and nothing will happen.
Some bikes may. Catch and start to turn but when the compression stroke is reach the motor will roll back and forth as the clutch catches and is then over powered by the compression again.
NOTE: if your motor is doing any of these. don't keep trying to start your bike too many times, you run the risk of damaging your Crank shaft.
This job should take with some planning and care and about 2hrs adjust a little for Water-Cooled bikes. This also depends on your skill.
Tools.
30mm ½ drive Impact socket would be the best.
½ drive Impact Wrench
(If you don’t have access to one you can use the socket and a soft strap wrench to hold the Generator. Or the Ducati Tool there are two, one for the 2Phase gen. And the 3Phase gen. It is important that you know what you have before buying this tool. (its handy for more than just this job.)
4mm and 5mm Allen Long, A set of Dykes
Locktite 601 or Permatex thread locker Red
Some rags, and a sharpie or tire lettering pen.
A piece of card board.
Rubber or Leather Mallet
Torque wrench
Permatex HYLOMARo HPF Gasket Dressing or some other High tack sealant. Do not use RTV Sealants
First Thing.
Place bike on a your center stand or a Swing arm stand. NOT on your side stand. Remove any body work from the left side of the bike. That covers the Gen cover. If you have a 851,888 or 900SS and some Monsters, you will most likely want to remove your side stand as it will interfere with removing the case cover.
Next Get your piece of card board and make mark out the pattern of bolts for your cover on it. Poke holes in it. You will place your Allen bolts from the cover in it. Because some of the bolts are specific to there holes. This saves some time on the install and keeps the hardware from getting lost.
Remove your Shifter from the Shaft. 4mm Allen
2V motors Skip this Paragraph unless you have a ST2 water cooled Motor.
Next if you have a water-cooled bike i.e. 851,888,916,996,748 and ST2,ST4 Drain the coolant from the lowest point of the motor this will be from the Horizontal cylinder. Open the Radiator cap or pressure tank cap. Now there is a 5mm Allen on the lowest hose mount. Undo this (there is a small copper washer do not loose it). After the coolant has drained. Loosen the hose clamps on the water pump completely. Then loosen the clamp at the other end of those hoses just a little bit. This is so when you pull the hose off the pump you can turn the hose up so the extra coolant in the system will not drain and they will be out of your way. You may also just remove them if you wish. You can Remove the Water Pump cover or not. Your Choice. If you are going to remove the water pump buy a new gasket.
Remove all the 5mm bolts from the cover. Next remove the three 5mm bolts that hold the Clutch Slave cylinder do not disconnect the hose. Just move the cylinder up and out of the way.
If you have a 4V motor Remove the 4mm bolts that hold your Crank Triggers in. 916,ST4 and S4R’s have one. 851,888 and 916 SPS motors Have 2. Be careful not to loose the shims, one will be located at the front of the case the other will be on top next to the Sight glass.
Before removing the cover have something to support it like a block or safety wire so you don’t have to remove the generator. DO NOT USE the Gen Wires to support the cover.
If you have the Ducati Puller for the Alt cover you can use it.
You might have to tap gently on the cover with the mallet. This should loosen up the cover. Then you can pull it off carefully, do not twist it. If you pull carefully you will not need to replace or use sealant NOTE There are pressed in bearings in the cover that are no fun to replace if you are to vigorous.
Now support the cover with your safety wire or block.
Below is a picture of what s behind. The Sprag inside the back of the Flywheel.
Some very important things before you remove the Nut.
1. take a clean rag and wipe the oil off the generator. Then mark it as in the picture. You will do the same with the Sprag. IF YOU INSTALL any of these backwards you will regret it. So take the time to mark them. The Fly wheel will just pull off with out tools. Look at it there is a dimple on its face next to the crank shaft. This dimple lines up with the woodruff key slot. Do not loose the woodruff key. As you take things a part place them down in order and orientation that they came out in. this will help in the installation.
2. Now if you have an Impact wrench hold the generator with your hand and loosen the nut.
IF you don’t have one use your strap wrench or your Ducati tool to hold the gen. Then loosen the nut. It will be very tight. Get a friend to help you with this part. NOTE be sure to note the shape and orientation of the washer. Some are Conical it is critical that this washing be installed in its correct position.
3. Slide it off. Now you can see the flywheel. Look for the dimple. Remove the woodruff key and sick it to the generator.
4. Gently slide the flywheel off the crank. Behind the flywheel is a set of needle bearings in a cage, with a thin washing behind leave these in place.
5. Now turn over the flywheel so you can see the back. You can now slide the driven gear off the flywheel. You can now see the Sprag clutch. At this point Inspect he race on the driven gear to see if there is any galling from the Sprag if there isn’t continue on.
IF there is Galling STOP. Depending on your mechanical aptitude determine what you should do next. Buy the new parts and change the oil, OR take it to the dealership for a through check.
6 Okay now your looking at the back of he Flywheel. There is a snap ring holding the Sprag in. you can use a small flat head screwdriver to remove the ring. You can now remove the Sprag. Mark the side facing you when installed.
7 Be very careful with the Sprag there are lots of small parts. Look very carefully at the small spring going around the out side of the Sprag Once you have found this use that same screwdriver to lift the spring out of its grove. Be sure not to let any of the teeth fall out. . There will be a small gap in the spring. This is the place where the spring is screwed into it’s self. NOTE the spring will wrap it’s self all up. don’t worry about this.
8 Use your fingers to unscrew the spring. Once that is done take a pare of Dykes and snip off about 1/2 to 5/8th of an inch. Then screw in back onto it’s self. NOTE Clip the end of the spring that is Not Tapered. if you clip the tapered end you will have to buy a new Sprag. Because you will not be able to screw the spring back together.
9 Carefully place the spring back around the Sprag. You can stretch the spring farther than you think. But if you distort the spring you will need to buy that new Sprag. Sorry. you can't buy just the spring from Ducati.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that you are done with the hard part. We put it back together. All parts must go back the way they came out no exceptions and NO EXTRA PARTS if you have some you need to start over.
10 Place the Sprag back in the Flywheel with the side you marked facing out. Then re-install the snap-ring. Make sure it is seated completely.
11 Slide the Driven Gear back in to Sprag. Now hold up the Flywheel. Looking at it as it would be sitting in the engine. Turn the driven gear. It should turn freely clock wise. And not Counter clock wise. Counter Clock wise is Engine rotation. If this is not then remove the Sprag and flip it around. Then re-check. Before installing flywheel.
12 Next. Before installing Flywheel. You must center the thin washer on the Ring that fits inside the Roller cage. This is very critical.
13 Once that is done now you can place the Flywheel back on the crankshaft. Making sure that the dimple is lined up with the slot for the woodruff key in the crankshaft.
14 Now install the woodruff key and slide the Generator on with the correct side facing out. Do not dislocate the woodruff key while doing this.
Consider replacing your nut with a pare of nuts from Nichols MFG. These will not come loose and are a great upgrade, piece of mind for only a few dollars.
15 Next is the washer and nut. Before installing the nut clean all threads and put locktite 601 or equivalent on. Then torque the nut to. 100 to 130 Ft pounds
16 If you have a air-cooled bike carefully place the cover back on the bike. Once seated down install all fasteners.
DO NOT FORCE COVER.
17 If you have a water cooled bike and you did not remove the water pump. Check the positions of the water pump drive shaft on the motor and the pump shaft on the cover. If they are not in the same position turn the pump shaft in the cover to align it with the motor. Then slide the cover on. If the cover will not get any loser than ½ inch away from the engine then you must re-align the shaft. It might take a couple times. DO NOT FORCE.
If you removed the water pump cover just turn the impeller until you feel the shaft engage. At this point the cover will seat. Then install pump cover with a new gasket and a thin layer of Permatex HYLOMARo HPF Gasket Dressing. NO RTV sealants. Do not fully tighten water pump cover.
18 Now you can tighten all of the cover bolts. For 4V bikes reinstall the Crank Triggers making sure that the seating surface and the shims are clean and not damaged.
19 Install Shift assembly. And side stand if removed.
20 Water Cooled Bikes Install coolant hoses and tighten along with 5mm coolant drain plug. Fill system with new coolant or old if there are not contaminations. CHECK for leeks
21 Wipe up any oil on the motor and exhaust system.
22 Start Bike to bleed the cooling system. and ad coolant until full. Check for leeks once bike is up to temp.
23 As for doing this again in the future, there is room to snip the spring more. But unless you have a All out race motor with an electric start. You should only have to do this once.
I hope this will help. Please feel free to email me any questions. About this job or any other.
If you read this and think I have left anything out please let me know.
Chris Gill
christopher@bulldogmtnbikes.com
and here is an odd ball piece of info:
The 906 Paso, 900ss, Pantah engine starter sprag clutch is the same as an LC4 Freewheel bearing,
(KTM Part No.58440026000), avaliable from your local KTM dealer!
====================================================================================
Iconic944ss:
I did a little research when I thought the similar sprag was playing up on my 900ss, here might be some relevant info:
ccrma.stanford.edu/~peer/Duc/duc-spragSpring.html
www.mad-ducati.com/Technical/StarterSpragClutch/SpragClutch.html